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Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date
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jusnice
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10/11/2011  1:53 PM
So much to think about...I am confused and have few answers. The Septa ain't a Septa, not sure who she is. The Blackfish will come back and play a role for sure. He's not dead. I originally thought that Cold Hands was Benjen, but now Mark is making me reconsider this given the age comment. I just don't understand what Cold Hands is and what his purpose is in helping Bran if he isn't Benjen. Why would he have let Samwell escape and why would he have some good in him when other brothers who have been turned do not??? Confused.

I am also very confused by what is happening to Bran. What is this underworld he is in and who is the tree man?

The only thing I firmly believe is that Arya will have a huge role in what comes next. I don't think she becomes an assasin or stays with the Faceless Men. It seems that she is learning something in each of her phases of life and that she will turn into this very well rounded, very dangerous woman. Part of me thinks she teams up with Dany since they seem to have strong moral values and aren't all about power and killing.

The Dany plot line is getting a bit old. Does anyone talk about how she must learn to control these dragons or they really aren't an asset to her at all?

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BigDaddyG
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10/11/2011  4:34 PM
Markji wrote:
First, I want to make clear that I don't have all the answers, just opinions and educated guesses using some facts/hints from the books. Other people find different facts/hints and bring them up. So it is fun to consider and discuss and eventually we'll all find out.

Didn't mean to put you on the spot man. There's only one man out there who really knows and he's taking his sweet @ss time providing answers. That's right, I'm talking to you Martin Joking aside, I'm pretty much hooked on the series now and I hope it concludes the way that it was originally planned.

I have another question for yall. Why is Varys helping the Targs when he is so afraid of magic? He must realize the connection between magic and dragons.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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10/11/2011  6:22 PM
jusnice wrote:So much to think about...I am confused and have few answers. The Septa ain't a Septa, not sure who she is. The Blackfish will come back and play a role for sure. He's not dead. I originally thought that Cold Hands was Benjen, but now Mark is making me reconsider this given the age comment. I just don't understand what Cold Hands is and what his purpose is in helping Bran if he isn't Benjen. Why would he have let Samwell escape and why would he have some good in him when other brothers who have been turned do not??? Confused.

I am also very confused by what is happening to Bran. What is this underworld he is in and who is the tree man?

The only thing I firmly believe is that Arya will have a huge role in what comes next. I don't think she becomes an assasin or stays with the Faceless Men. It seems that she is learning something in each of her phases of life and that she will turn into this very well rounded, very dangerous woman. Part of me thinks she teams up with Dany since they seem to have strong moral values and aren't all about power and killing.

The Dany plot line is getting a bit old. Does anyone talk about how she must learn to control these dragons or they really aren't an asset to her at all?


Sorry to confuse you. There is a huge amount going on all at the same time and Geo Martin plays his cards close to his chest.

Coldhands- at first I also thought it was Benjen Stark. Maybe he is? or maybe that would be too obvious? My main thought against him being Benjen is why hasn't Bran recognized him as his uncle. They are traveling together for many, many weeks. Surely Bran should notice??? Coldhands is obviously dead and so must be like the other wights in that respect. But he serves the 3-Eyed Crow who is a great Greenseer who controls many things. i.e. the flock of 1001 crows/ravens, Coldhands, the great Elk, etc.

The 3-Eyed Crow is very ancient man/Greenseer whose body is being kept alive and nourished by somehow melding with the tree. It is very strange and I have not read about this concept before. He is the 3-Eyed Crow in Bran's dreams who keeps telling Bran he can fly by opening up his 3rd eye. He is teaching Bran the ways of a Greenseer and IMO, Bran seems to already have surpassed him. 3-Eyed Crow just watches thru the Weirwoods but can't interfere or make contact. Bran already can do that but in addition he spoke out to Theon in the Godswood in Winterfell and Theon heard Bran. Therefore, made contact and communicated.

I agree with you totally about Arya. I love her and she is one person you don't want to cross. Geo Martin did a great job with her chapters because we are seeing thru the eyes and feeling the emotions of a 9 year old girl going thru all of her many adventures.

And Dany - yeah, that sure seemed very stupid for her to chain up the dragons. I thought that was an incongruous twist to the plot. But now the dragons are lose and they will kick ***. Qwentyn got toasted. I hope the same happens to the Yunkai.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Markji
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10/11/2011  10:19 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Markji wrote:
First, I want to make clear that I don't have all the answers, just opinions and educated guesses using some facts/hints from the books. Other people find different facts/hints and bring them up. So it is fun to consider and discuss and eventually we'll all find out.

Didn't mean to put you on the spot man. There's only one man out there who really knows and he's taking his sweet @ss time providing answers. That's right, I'm talking to you Martin Joking aside, I'm pretty much hooked on the series now and I hope it concludes the way that it was originally planned.

I have another question for yall. Why is Varys helping the Targs when he is so afraid of magic? He must realize the connection between magic and dragons.

No problem. I don't feel I am put on the spot. I just don't want to sound like the "know it all".

Varys is the most interesting shadow character, IMO. We never really know whose side he's on in any particular situation. But I do believe him when he answers - "I'm for the realm."
And I think he was sincere when he expressed to Ned in the dungeon cell, "if the gods are just, why do the common people suffer so much when you Lords play your Game of Thrones?" And we see this happen thru-out the series, how brutally the common people are treated during the wars.
P.S. Varys was in disguise in the dungeon - It is Varys who actually is the gruff head jailer whom the other jailers don't see very often or know much about. He is playing both roles. This makes me also wonder if he is really a eunich?

IMO, I think Varys knows something very important about the impending danger facing Westeros. And the need to bring back the Targeryens and their dragons to face Winter and all of the sinister, dead, cold creatures that are being awakened now. Maybe he believes the prophesy that from Rhaegar's line will come the Prince Who Was Promised to save the world? Just speculating and brainstorming. Don't really know.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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10/16/2011  11:17 PM
The thing about Varys I don't understand is that he apparently instigated a lot Aerys's cruel acts during the series. I don't know if I can buy it when says he works for the good of the kingdom when he played a huge rule in spinning into chaos in the first place.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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10/17/2011  12:06 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:The thing about Varys I don't understand is that he apparently instigated a lot Aerys's cruel acts during the series. I don't know if I can buy it when says he works for the good of the kingdom when he played a huge rule in spinning into chaos in the first place.

I think Varys has been more against the Lannisters. He counciled Aerys not to open the gates for Tywin L.
Varys is a mystery because he seems to be for the Targs, but he did spy on Dany's whereabouts and give that info to Robert.

Varys doesn't seem to be trying to raise his own status and power like Littlefinger. He is content where he is and if he ever decided to leave, he could live out his life in complete luxury and safety with his good friend since childhood - Illyrio. So he must have a larger purpose. I can't say I really know but to me it points to saving the world from the dark forces of Winter.???

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Markji
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10/25/2011  9:28 AM
I thought I'd give some interesting passages, since B-ball is rather non-existent. These concern Jon Snow's parentage and Ned at the Tower of Joy. From the 1st book.

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.... Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.


Interesting that Ned doesn't say Jon is his son, but rather Jon "is my blood". It opens up the idea that Ned may not be Jon's father.

The Tower of Joy. A dream Ned has when he is lying unconscious after the fight with the Lannisters in the street. Ned's horse falls on him and breaks his leg.

EDDARD
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.
"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.
"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, .,and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."
"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.
"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.
Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.
"Lord Eddard?" A shadow stood over the bed.
"How . . . how long?" The sheets were tangled, his leg splinted and plastered. A dull throb of pain shot up his side.
"Six days and seven nights." The voice was Vayon Poole's. The steward....

Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."

.... Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.


This passage is open to lots of unanswered questions and speculation.

Main question -
1. What did Ned promise Lyanna on her deathbed? It is widely thought that Lyanna died giving birth.

2. What were 3 of the 7 Kingsguards doing at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. They primary duty is to protect the Royal Family and none were at the Tower. The 3 were special; Ser Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander; Ser Arthur Dayne, the fiercest warrior; and Ser Oswell Whent. Why weren't they at the places Ned mentions - Battle of the Trident with Prince Rhaegar; or Kings Landing with the Royal Family and heirs? or helping the queen and children escape?
Where were they? and what was their mission at such a critical time?

Geo Martin hasn't answered this yet but it provokes a lot of thinking, speculation, and discussion.
Any ideas?

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
jusnice
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10/25/2011  11:32 AM
Wow - there is so much I don't remember and so much detail to his writing. I can't imagine going back to re-read right now, but you are right, this points to a lot of conjecture about Jon's parents. I think he may have some dragon in him.
BigDaddyG
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10/25/2011  7:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2011  8:06 PM
There's no question in my mind regarding Jon's parentage...By all accounts, Rhaegar did not act recklessly. Quite a few people spoke of him with admiration and he comes across as dutiful and honorable. He does not seem like the sort who would just run off with some broad and rape her. Robert Baratheon would make it seem like Lyanna was kidnapped, but I never got that impression from anyone else. It's possible that Rhaegar smoked too much of that special herb and went crazy like his pops, but that doesn't seem likely either. He had a clear head during the rebellion and his actions didn't appear to be erratic, outside of the kidnapping.
But he did have one obsession. I forget what book or chapter it was (and I'm not digging through the books this late in the day), but Rhaegar was a strong believer of the prince who was promised prophecy. He actually thought that he was the long awaited savior. I could see the fulfillment of the prophesy as the one thing that would cause Rhaegar, who was known as a mellow and introspective dude, to start a civil war.
Plus, when Melisandre keeps calling for Azhor, she sees John Snow. That nails it for me
This isn't "Lost." I don't think GRRM throws in these clues and images just for the hell of it.
My questions are:
Where is Howland Reed?
Is it possible for Bran to find out what happened at the Tower of Joy?
Why hasn't the three-eyed crow stepped forward to offer more direct assistance to Jon. If Jon is the prince who was promised,surely he would know?
Why did Ned lie to Cat about it?
What kind of power boost does Jon get to become the prince who was promised? He'll need some Dragon Ball Z style leveling. I mean, Mance Rayder was doing an easy job of smacking Jon around. How is he supposed to compete against a legion of 'others'?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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10/25/2011  9:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2011  9:48 PM
Rhaegar was a reader of many books and somewhere (earlier books) it stated that at one point, Rhaegar was reading, and then suddenly stopped reading and went totally into becoming a knight, battles, etc.

In another place, I think book 5, Aerys heard a prophecy that the Prince who was Promised would come from his line. Can't be Rhaegar or Vicerys because both are dead. Aegon, Rhaegar's baby boy who was supposed to have been killed by the Mountain, could be alive and a possible candidate for the PWWP. Young Griff is supposed to be Aegon, but I have my doubts he really is. Don't know for sure. I do believe baby Aegon was switched and it still alive. Might be why the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy.?? (speculating - I think Darkstar is Aegon, and then certainly not the PWWP).

Perhaps Rhaegar learned that the PWWP would come from his line (fire) and the Starks (Ice)-Lyanna. And therefore Jon would fit that perfectly.

A third possibility is Danaerys. Dragons are neuter so the word "Prince" could possibly refer to either a male or female.

From Book 2 - When Dany is going through the House of the Undying, she comes upon this scene - obviously Rhaegar:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Ned keeps Jon's real parentage private because if Robert ever found out, he would have Jon killed.

Howland Reed is the only one who really knows what happened. Geo Martin said that he wouldn't have Howland Reed as a Point of View character because he knows too much.....meaning he wants to keep us guessing and trying to figure things out.

Other questions are very good ones but I don't have any ideas or answers.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Markji
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10/30/2011  8:35 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2011  8:39 AM
Alleras is another mystery character worthy of discussion. Alleras is introduced in the prologue of Book 4, a young acolyte, drinking with some other acolytes in a tavern. Alleras is the archer who shoots an arrow through the apple in mid-flight when it is thrown over the canal. Alleras is from Dorne and described as tall and slender and nicknamed "The Sphinx."

Near the end of Book 4, Maester Aemon tells Sam on the boat to Oldtown that

"The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler."
but Sam doesn't understand . Maester Aemon is a bit delirious. (Obviously, Geo Martin is making a reference to the "Riddle of the Sphinx" from ancient mythology.)

In the last chapter of Book 4 Sam meets Alleras while waiting to meet the head archmaester. Sam asks Alleras if he knows what "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." means, but Alleras says no. Alleras brings Sam to Marwyn.

Now skip to Prince Doran Martell in Dorne near the beginning of Book 4. He rounds up all of the Sandsnakes, Prince Oberyn's bastard daughters, when they plot to start a war with the Lannisters, all except Sarella. The head of his guard asks:

“What of Sarella? She is a woman grown, almost twenty.”
“Unless she returns to Dorne, there’s naught I can do about Sarella save pray that she shows more sense than her sisters. Leave her to her . . . game."

Spell Sarella backwards.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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10/31/2011  9:02 PM
I picked up on the Sallera/Alleras thing a while ago. My question is what is she doing there and what did the faceless man want when we he killed poor, young, virgin Pate. Also, I'd like to see a few more Summers Islanders in the book and some more of those fine Dornish women, you know what I'm saying.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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10/31/2011  11:08 PM
Sarella/Alleras - You did better than me. I only discovered that when I read the forums. It was then that I realized that so many characters are different than who they seem to be.

What's she doing in Oldtown - why playing "her ....game". Probably trying to learn some of the secret knowledge taught to maesters. She was interested in nature as a child.

Jaquen did a number on Pate. The faceless men are infiltrating the citadel to either kill someone or to learn some secret or steal some artifact. Probably in Book 6.

The HBO series is ripe with beautiful, young, naked women.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Markji
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11/7/2011  9:49 AM
Another character who's parentage is questionable is, IMO, Tyrion. I think he is part Targaryen. A number of clues throughout the books.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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11/7/2011  1:12 PM
Yeah, I don't buy the Tyrion being half Targ theory. I think Tywin would have had the Imp killed a long time ago if that wad the case.

Would do you think of the theory that Jojen was Bran food? I don't buy it, but some compelling arguments have been made.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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11/8/2011  12:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2011  1:02 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:Yeah, I don't buy the Tyrion being half Targ theory. I think Tywin would have had the Imp killed a long time ago if that wad the case.

Would do you think of the theory that Jojen was Bran food? I don't buy it, but some compelling arguments have been made. I don't understand what u are saying here???


Why Tyrion might be half Targ. Numerous hints. First is thru Jon's eyes as he sees the 3 Lannister siblings and their children for the first time at the Great Hall in Winterfell (Book 1).

Cersei: She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes.
Myrcella: a cascade of golden curls
Joffrey: Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls
Jaime: tall and golden, with flashing green eyes

Now Tyrion
dwarf, half his brother's height, ....One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.
Jon watched him with fascination.

Lannisters have green eyes; the Targs dark purple which sometimes seem black in dim light.
Lannisters have beautiful golden curls; Targs have straight silvery hair.
Tyrion is described as having half the features of a Lannister and half the features of a Targ.

Jon watching Tyrion with fascination ....and later befriending Tyrion. Strange behavior for a Stark to befriend a Lannister; throughout the book they hate each other; unless of course they were related by their Targ blood.

2. Tyrion loves and is fascinated by dragons and says he reads everything about them. = Targ

3. Tyrion to Jon at the Wall.
"In their father's eyes, all dwarfs are bastards, yet all bastards don't have to be dwarfs."

4. Tyrion defends and wins the battle of King's Landing by using Wildfire, a Targ weapon.

5. In book 5 we hear from Barristan Selmy that Mad King Aerys (Targ) had a thing for Johanna Lannister(Tywin's wife) and made inappropriate strong advances. IMO, he could have raped her very easily and hence, a child = Tyrion.

6. Lord Tywin was the one who sacked Kings Landing and had the entire Targ Royal family slaughtered including the children and Rhaegar's baby son Aegon. Sounds more like a man seeking vengeance than just a conqueror.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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11/12/2011  4:46 PM
Markji wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:Yeah, I don't buy the Tyrion being half Targ theory. I think Tywin would have had the Imp killed a long time ago if that wad the case.

Would do you think of the theory that Jojen was Bran food? I don't buy it, but some compelling arguments have been made. I don't understand what u are saying here???


Why Tyrion might be half Targ. Numerous hints. First is thru Jon's eyes as he sees the 3 Lannister siblings and their children for the first time at the Great Hall in Winterfell (Book 1).

Cersei: She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes.
Myrcella: a cascade of golden curls
Joffrey: Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls
Jaime: tall and golden, with flashing green eyes

Now Tyrion
dwarf, half his brother's height, ....One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.
Jon watched him with fascination.

Lannisters have green eyes; the Targs dark purple which sometimes seem black in dim light.
Lannisters have beautiful golden curls; Targs have straight silvery hair.
Tyrion is described as having half the features of a Lannister and half the features of a Targ.

Jon watching Tyrion with fascination ....and later befriending Tyrion. Strange behavior for a Stark to befriend a Lannister; throughout the book they hate each other; unless of course they were related by their Targ blood.

2. Tyrion loves and is fascinated by dragons and says he reads everything about them. = Targ

3. Tyrion to Jon at the Wall.
"In their father's eyes, all dwarfs are bastards, yet all bastards don't have to be dwarfs."

4. Tyrion defends and wins the battle of King's Landing by using Wildfire, a Targ weapon.

5. In book 5 we hear from Barristan Selmy that Mad King Aerys (Targ) had a thing for Johanna Lannister(Tywin's wife) and made inappropriate strong advances. IMO, he could have raped her very easily and hence, a child = Tyrion.

6. Lord Tywin was the one who sacked Kings Landing and had the entire Targ Royal family slaughtered including the children and Rhaegar's baby son Aegon. Sounds more like a man seeking vengeance than just a conqueror.

There's a theory floating around that the red paste Bran ate to awaken his third- eye was made with part love, a pinch of Werewoood seeds and a whole lotta Jojen.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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11/12/2011  11:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/12/2011  11:01 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Would do you think of the theory that Jojen was Bran food? I don't buy it, but some compelling arguments have been made. I don't understand what u are saying here???


There's a theory floating around that the red paste Bran ate to awaken his third- eye was made with part love, a pinch of Werewoood seeds and a whole lotta Jojen.

I never heard that one but anything could be true. What were the clues to derive at this conclusion?
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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11/16/2011  12:53 AM
There's an entire thread on Jojen's fate here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56772-jojen-reeds-fate-adwd-spoilers/

Not sure if I buy it, but they do make some compelling arguments.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
jusnice
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11/16/2011  10:15 AM
Wow - never really considered this about Jojen. Refresh my memory - did he die or disappear?
Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date

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