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Dan1078
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1/24/2003  9:08 AM
Very good points moran. I think the Knicks can make a run for the playoffs and avoid a first round exit. I'll enjoy watching them go for it.
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Vmart
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1/24/2003  10:54 AM
Posted by fmoran:
Posted by Vmart:

I have seen the Knicks in the playoffs thats been done the championship is the only thing missing though.

People really don't see the whole picture. I mean, why is anything less then a championship considered a failed season for you? I'm a die-hard knicks fan, always have, always will be, and I'll be the first to tell you that if they had a healthy McDyess, they'd be contending for the Eastern crown, considering how well they play without him against top East teams like Indiana and New Jersey. But they probably wouldn't have won the title. Would that kind of season be a failure in your eyes? I mean only one city has won a title in the last 3 years. Should the other 28 teams have tanked their seasons for the chance to draft the likes of Brand, K-Mart, and Kwame? Last time I checked those 3 haven't won any titles either.

The fact of the matter is there are more important things, as fans, to admire about a team then whether they win a championship or not. Making the playoffs is an achievement. To say otherwise is to say Patrick Ewing did absolutely nothing for this franchise. Of course everyone's goal is to win the big one, but should we throw in the towel if the best we can do is 2nd? Or 3rd? Or 10th? What I am hearing is that making the playoffs doesn't matter if you can't win a title. But think about it: Are the Jazz going to win it all this year? How about the Suns? Rockets? How about the Eastern Conference? Probably not. So why do they even bother, right? Why even have an Eastern conference? Because giving up your chance at the title is even worse then losing it to a better team. Who in their right mind says, "Man I know we're in the playoffs right now, but I'd much rather be in the lottery, so that the franchise will benefit down the road, then competing for a title now." Who knows? Maybe the Knicks will squeeze into the playoffs, just in time for McDyess to come back and lead them to the Finals, where they give Kings a run for their money.

Point being, you place too much value on a lottery pick. What is one 17-year old rookie going to do for you? So what if he is the real deal. Did Karl Malone, Pat Ewing, or Charles Barkley win titles? No. And Lebron could just as easily end his career not having won the Knicks that title you so desperately crave. A decent lottery pick will keep us out of the lottery, but barring a LeBron (maybe even Drako/Carmelo) the playoff runs will be led by Houston, Spree, and Dice. And, uh, if we can avoid the lottery altogether THIS year, should that be the goal? You talk about rebuilding, but is it really necessary yet? People put an emphasis on youth, but look at the last few teams to contend for titles. Shaq aint that young, and the Kings are veterans as well. I think the most important element to a championship team is chemistry. And Houston, Spree and Dice might have it. We'll have at least one more year to find out.

Sure the Knicks have contract issues, but contracts expire. They really aren't in as bad a state as everyone likes to say. Ok, maybe they are, but contracts expire.

Anyways, I'll stop ranting and leave ya with this thought: if the Knicks can be a mediocre team without arguably their best player (which is more then teams like Toronto and LA can say), imagine what they'd be doing with him.

No those years were not failures they went into the playoffs with a chance at winning a title a few brawls here and there cost them a chance for a possible ring. I can't say the same for this year they are not as talented as those past teams. Going to the playoffs this year is not an accomplishment unless you think a first round exit is an accomplishment. Those past team had a franchise player on it Ewing he was probably a top 5 player at the time. Right now they don't even have a top five much less a top 20 player on this team. If you list the favorite teams they all have a top ten player on their team a franchise player. There has to be a purpose for getting to the playoffs. Young teams can use making the playoffs to determine that they are getting better but for the knicks they are not a young team so most likely if Dice doesn't come back healthy next year they will be back in the same position or they will be get worse. Like I said the Knicks are a bunch of peaked out players and some are already hitting a downward spiral in their abilities. This team no longer has any superstars. Dice can't be considered a superstar unless he plays up to the same abilities he once played at. Spree is no longer the player he use to be he is a good player but he no longer is a superstar. Houston great shooter but lacks to many intangilbles to be considered a superstar, he also is a good player. KT he is a decent player at best. The Goal has to set at winning a Championship. If playoffs is the NYK goals then they are Champions in their own eyes.
NyFanInAtl
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1/24/2003  11:54 AM
fmoran you make a good point on superstars. Having one doesn't guarantee you a ring, but Having a superstar means having something to get excited about, having an identity like we used to have when Ewing was here, Also having a player to build around, and eventually being a competative team again with at least a shot of winning the championship (a contender). If Management did the smart thing and decided to rebuild when the Ewing run had to end and at least only took back expiring contracts and picks (or something to that effect) this team could have been conpetative in a few short years, hell with the time and money we took wasting with rice and now anderson and eisley and houston's contract we could have even rebuilt on the fly by cutting salaries, maybe picking up a few young players and having money to persue a superstar via free agency. Now this team has no such options for improvement and only have the draft. That's not to say that the players and coach should just give up I would expect better than that from anywone who wears orange and blue, but management should have seen the writing on the wall.
Knicksfan1971
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1/24/2003  12:06 PM
No superstar,no ring.Its not that complicated.Thats why we need to
stop kidding ourselves that this team as constructed will be
anything more than marginal at best.Wish I had the rose colored
glasses concession on this board,Id make a fortune.
knixphan
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1/24/2003  1:56 PM
Here in the US, we live in an all-or-nothing culture. If you don't win the entire thing, it's tantamount to totall loss. In other cultures, a 'championship' scenario is defined by lots of things, and even though elimination tournaments happen, the 'winner-loser' dynamic is a lot more forgiving than in the states.

Anyway, BOTH sides of the argument have equal weight, but we do live in this 'winner-take-all' culture, so the franchise is under that pressure to literally take all, and anything less will be seen as a failure by the masses. Its just the way it is here. Not right, not wrong, just the way it is.

So the necessity for the draft, as NYFANINATL stated, was created by the mis-management of Ewing's departure. I would have taken the chance at a pissed-off Ewing rather than the Longley-Rice-Eisley-Anderson thing. I would have even taken BAKER straight up rather than the current duo...but that's spilled milk.

The bright side of losing this season (despite the pain) is that should be all. We won't need to repeat this. Contracts expire, and talent matures. With a good big man out of the draft, a motivated Spree, a fired-up Milos, the sure stroke of H20 and **A HEALTHY DICE, we should be poised to make a run at the Kings/Mavs/Dare I say Lakers...

By the time this bunch is completely over the hill, we'll have enough cap room to go get Odom and Yao as FA's...lol

It's really great to see Knick pride, no matter HOW it's expressed...I dig the fact that all of you want what you believe is best for the squad. And that's the strength of the NYK - It's US!!!!


Go NY.
"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
Knicksfan1971
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1/24/2003  2:30 PM
Good post Knixphan.We do have an all or nothing culture,we want to be the best at everything but in this case it isnt a question of us
wanting a case full of championship trophies.I dont think its selfish
for some us to want the Knicks to win more than once every 30 years.
As far getting a big man and developing talent we cant do that if they keep adding aging veterans that dont give them any time to develop.It hasnt helped that we have made lousy picks as well but we
wouldnt know either way because with the Knicks its one strike and youre out when it comes to rookies.If they dont play like a veterans
right off the bat,they become towel waivers.I think its good that
some posters want to stay optimistic,I do get upset though when I
hear that the Knicks are on the right track.When you are the shortest,oldest team in the NBA with the highest payroll and consistently rated as having the worst mgmt in the NBA it should be a signal that the Knicks need a change in philosophy.
Dan1078
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1/24/2003  2:39 PM
Good points Knixphan EXCEPT for saying the Knicks would be better
off with Vin "Krispy Kreme" Baker instead of with Eisley and Anderson!


Vin Baker has been terrible this year! What a bust for Boston! (5.5 ppg and 4.5 rpg, bleeechh!)

Meanwhile, Howard and Shandon are in fact very overpaid, but they're
actually playing pretty well this year:

8 ppg and 6 appg are decent for a pt guard.

And Shandon is averaging 8.5 ppg. HE plays hard defense and is very conducive to Coach CHaney's fast-pace offense.
knixphan
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1/24/2003  2:49 PM
I hear you Dan, I really don't like Vin either, and Shandon and Howard are improved, but tying into Knicksfan1071's point about rookie development, Vin on the squad would'nt take up TWO roster spots (even though he may take up two spots on the bench), and arguably He could hold the center spot a bit with KT...

Truth be told, I would have MUCH rather allowed Patrick to retire, given him a great big party and used the salary room to bring in Olowokandi or something - dunno...

I also agree that 30 years is a long enough cycle without a championship...I wouldn't mind being in the finals again soon...

I have a reeeely good feeling about Milos, y'all.

"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
Knicksfan1971
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1/24/2003  2:57 PM
Posted by knixphan:

but tying into Knicksfan1071's point about rookie development, Vin on the squad would'nt take up TWO roster spots
I have a reeeely good feeling about Milos, y'all.

I was refering to your comment about developing a big man out of the draft.I have a good feeling about Milos as well,I just hope they give him a real chance to crack the rotation.
Vmart
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1/24/2003  2:59 PM
Posted by knixphan:

I hear you Dan, I really don't like Vin either, and Shandon and Howard are improved, but tying into Knicksfan1071's point about rookie development, Vin on the squad would'nt take up TWO roster spots (even though he may take up two spots on the bench), and arguably He could hold the center spot a bit with KT...

Truth be told, I would have MUCH rather allowed Patrick to retire, given him a great big party and used the salary room to bring in Olowokandi or something - dunno...

I also agree that 30 years is a long enough cycle without a championship...I wouldn't mind being in the finals again soon...

I have a reeeely good feeling about Milos, y'all.

I to have a good feeling about Vujanic but I hope for the fans sake the Knicks are bringing him to play not be a cheerleader.
DefAndReb
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1/24/2003  6:29 PM
Look, we all want the Knicks to be contenders. That's really what this is about. Contenders. And we all have opinions on how the Knicks can become contenders again in the shortest time possible.

We all know that after the 99-00 season, the Tapscott draft and the Layden moves were all wrong. Bad trades for bad contracts. A glut of mid-sized players out of position, no muscle, no chemistry.

I, for one, don't think of the draft as a cure-all. Sure, you can improve through the draft, but it won't solve your problems.

Also, despite the mediocrity of the current team, as long as they have a shot at the playoffs, they should go for it. Until they are mathematically out of it, Frank and Lavor should just stay in shape and work hard. If they are any good and they work hard, their time will come. Just accept the fact that the Knicks are boring, mediocre, and not as bad as the media tries to make them out to be. If a team this out of position can play .500 ball, I say good for them!

I'd rather the Knicks make the playoffs and lose the first round than play the young scrubs and playing lotto in hope of being good next year. If the draft gods come to them, then great, but you can't seek out the draft gods, they choose you. If it happens, it happens.

What Layden better be doing is working on building (not re-building) each position and a good team chemistry. The McDyess move failed, but it was the first time Schmayden showed any boldness in his work. Sac-town got good doing bold deals, not through the draft. Let the draft come to us, trades are something the organization has control over.
Knicksfan1971
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1/24/2003  7:02 PM
I totally disagree.Layden did not show that he had stones by getting
dice,quite the opposite.he showed that he was going to wimp out again
and go for the quick fix.He would have shown that he was a risk taker
by drafting Hilario or Amare and letting them show that they were
worth it.Getting another broke down veteran because he used to be good
and has fan recognition shows absolutely no courage at all.The problem
is that Layden is building teams that just make the playoffs.
Sorry,but that isnt good enough for me and alot of other fans I i
imagine.
knixphan
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1/25/2003  12:06 AM
I think what DefandReb means is that it's easy to 'Clipperize' by getting the draft pick and saying - "Ok, we'll suck for a while, but expect it cause we have a rookie who needs to learn the ropes before he becomes a franchise...' as opposed to saying 'I have faith in this guy's (Dice) ability to win now, and I'll prove it'...

We all know that the KNicks won't do the Clipper thing, Dolan won't go there, so I can at least hope that the trades from here on get smarter. We will get a draft pick this year, however. If the 'Draft gods' get us the big fella, I'll be happy, cause it's impossible to get a center in a trade now...Every GM would try to rape us this summer.

"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
Knicksfan1971
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1/25/2003  2:04 AM
Posted by knixphan:

I think what DefandReb means is that it's easy to 'Clipperize' by getting the draft pick and saying - "Ok, we'll suck for a while, but expect it cause we have a rookie who needs to learn the ropes before he becomes a franchise...' as opposed to saying 'I have faith in this guy's (Dice) ability to win now, and I'll prove it'...

We all know that the KNicks won't do the Clipper thing, Dolan won't go there, so I can at least hope that the trades from here on get smarter. We will get a draft pick this year, however. If the 'Draft gods' get us the big fella, I'll be happy, cause it's impossible to get a center in a trade now...Every GM would try to rape us this summer.



The Knicks and the Clippers are at the opposite sides of the
spectrum.Where the clips play mostly players just coming into the
league without adding enough veterans in the mix(probably because its
cheaper)The knicks play veterans exclusively because they want to
get into the playoffs right now and make more money. Both strategies are flawed.Id like to see a happy medium where there is a mix of
veterans,and rookies that can learn from them.Unfortunately thats not
the way they think right now
DefAndReb
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1/25/2003  10:12 AM
Posted by Knicksfan1971:

I totally disagree.Layden did not show that he had stones by getting
dice,quite the opposite.he showed that he was going to wimp out again
and go for the quick fix.

Not a quick fix. McDyess, if healthy, is better than any of the rookies, and would be for years to come. He'd eat Amare's lunch. Also, he's hardly a "broke down veteran". He's not even 29 years old yet. It took balls because his knees carry a big question mark, and we found the answer in the pre-season, unfortunately.

Look at it this way: this is a business, priority number one is to make money. An owner hopes to make the finals, win a championship, but making money is more important. Playoffs means money, and a team good enough to make the playoffs sells WAY more tickets than a crap team with an exciting rookie. People don't come to MSG to see a team that might be good next year.

Believe me, I don't like the way the team is handled, either. Layden is one of the worst GM's in the league. I have no repsect for his abilities, even though he seems like a nice guy. But the McDyess move was bolder and better than taking the 7 pick, even though it blew up on him. No other team made as dramatic a move on draft night.
Sorry,but that isnt good enough for me and alot of other fans I i
imagine.

Then go be a fan for another team. I'll watch the Knicks if they're the oldest, highest paid, shortest, losingest team in the league. I don't root for teams because of how good they are. I root for them because of territory. NYC is the greatest city on Earth. All other major cities in the U.S. are dog**** by comparison, in varying degrees. I want their teams to suffer the pain of failure like the Boston Red Sox do every year.
BigSm00th
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1/25/2003  10:39 AM
"Then go be a fan for another team. I'll watch the Knicks if they're the oldest, highest paid, shortest, losingest team in the league. I don't root for teams because of how good they are. I root for them because of territory. NYC is the greatest city on Earth. All other major cities in the U.S. are dog**** by comparison, in varying degrees. I want their teams to suffer the pain of failure like the Boston Red Sox do every year."-I agree with everything Dan says, 100%. If the Knicks were a bunch of 7th grade girls I'd root for them, it wouldn't matter. If everyone rooted for the winners (which it seems to be now, since MSG was about 1/2 Mavs last night and 3 years ago that would've never happened), then things would get ridiculous.

I also like the draft night move, but it failed miserably for this year. Oh well, that's how it goes, take a chance and it hurt big time. Maybe it doesn't even hurt the Knicks, they get McDyess fully healthy next year along with Vujanic, who's a year older, and another lotto pick, along with the players fully knowing Chaney's system. That's looking at the bright side of things, but still, I had looking at things in retrospect.

The NY Giants could've had Ray Lewis, but they picked Cedric Jones. Looking bad does you no good.
#Knickstaps
Knicksfan1971
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1/25/2003  12:11 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

Not a quick fix. McDyess, if healthy, is better than any of the rookies, and would be for years to come. He'd eat Amare's lunch. Also, he's hardly a "broke down veteran". He's not even 29 years old yet. It took balls because his knees carry a big question mark, and we found the answer in the pre-season, unfortunately.


Absolutely it was a quick fix.It takes more guts to draft someone
and wait a few years to see if they pan out than to get a superstar
that can supply instant results.I would call someone who has played
a handfull of games in the last 2 seasons a broke down veteran.I dont
know what you would call a guy in his late 20s with 2 blown out knees.

Look at it this way: this is a business, priority number one is to make money. An owner hopes to make the finals, win a championship, but making money is more important. Playoffs means money, and a team good enough to make the playoffs sells WAY more tickets than a crap team with an exciting rookie. People don't come to MSG to see a team that might be good next year.


Thats exactly the kind of thinking that has kept NY from winning a
championship.We dont have one owner we have many,namely the
stockholders of cablevision who expect their stock price to stay up
by bringing in revenue from making the playoffs among other
things.Its the fans that want championships.If fans had a choice
between lebron james and a team that won ten games less and didnt
make the playoffs I guarantee you they would rather have James or
another top tier rookie than a first round exit.
Then go be a fan for another team. I'll watch the Knicks if they're the oldest, highest paid, shortest, losingest team in the league. I don't root for teams because of how good they are.






I cheered them on them for almost 2 decades when they were one of the
worst teams to mediocre at best so please dont imply that you are
more loyal to this team than I am.Ive put in my time watching the
Knicks stink up the garden.Maybe it doesnt mean that much to you to
win a championship,youre just happy to watch them.Doesnt make you any
less of a fan,thats your prerogative.I want something more for the
Knicks for myself and other fans,even you..Just because they are in
the dumps right now doesnt mean Ill stop watching them,never
have,never will.
knickgeek
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1/25/2003  1:44 PM
Here are some things we can all probably agree upon:

We're Knicks fans
We'd love it if the Knicks could win a championship again
The Knicks have made a lot of bad moves in recent years:
*Drafting Frederic Weis
*Trading Patrick for Rice & scrubs
*Overpaying Houston, Anserson & Eisley





[Edited by - knickgeek on 01/25/2003 13:45:51]
fmoran
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1/25/2003  4:16 PM
Posted by Knicksfan1971:


Absolutely it was a quick fix.It takes more guts to draft someone
and wait a few years to see if they pan out than to get a superstar
that can supply instant results.I would call someone who has played
a handfull of games in the last 2 seasons a broke down veteran.I dont
know what you would call a guy in his late 20s with 2 blown out knees.

That makes no sense to me. I mean, what you're telling me is you respect the "courage" of teams that sacrifice season after season hoping to strike big in the lottery (say Denver, Golden State, and Cleveland) then teams that make blockbuster trades in hopes of aquiring that final piece of the puzzle. Yeah, you're right, it took absolutely no guts to trade Stephon Marbury for Jason Kidd last year. None at all. To me, guts was taking a gamble on a former superstar and giving him the chance to prove himself again, and the Knicks did just that.

Had McDyess stayed healthy, he would have been better then any other draft pick the Knicks could have made. Plus they got rid of Mr.Glass. That trade would have been comparable to Kidd/Marbury last year (no diss to Starbury, but Kidd's better), since the Knicks aquired a superstar for practically nothing. It's easy to criticize now, but then, it was one of the best Knicks deals made in recent memory. Weren't you the one saying "No superstar, no ring"? Well they took the first steps by getting the superstar without giving up too much, and he got hurt. Sh*t happens.

But c'mon! "Broke down veteran"? I'll remember that when Dice comes back and averages 20 and 10. You're making him sound like Grant Hill, when he's more like Vince: unfortunate string of injuries, but plenty of gas left to prove critics wrong.

You seem set on dismantling the team, but why? If this team is playoff-caliber, then we should build on it, not blow it up. You don't win a ring without losing in the playoffs, and as the Knicks continue to get better, they'll become a great team. And hey, why is a first round exit the only possiblity? Without McDyess, the Knicks have played well against Indiana, New Jersey, and Detroit. And he's talking about coming back in April. Think big, Knicks fans. Either way, I think the team will be fine so long as everyone stops panicking.

There's a big difference between stubbornly trying to buy a quick fix out, and making the best decision for the franchise at the time. And taking such a chance, with injury and all, always shows more guts then simply giving up and hoping for a better tomorrow.
go knicks!
knixphan
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1/25/2003  5:07 PM
Def gets the 'quote of the week' award !

"NYC is the greatest city on Earth. All other major cities in the U.S. are dog**** by comparison, in varying degrees."


I'm with ya. Just FYI, I live in Los Angeles now, after a whole life in NYC, and I always stick up for the Knicks, even in the face of the world champs. That's what makes Knick fans better than everyone else - we don't back down...Not to Jordan, not to Shaq, nobody. We defend our team, because we know it WILL turn around.

We WILL get a good pick this year.
We WILL get Dice back (tap on wood).
We WILL get Milos.
We WILL have the most confident KT and Houston we've ever seen.
LJ & Longley WILL fall off the payroll.
Doleac WILL be improved.
Spike WILL be happy again.
TNT WILL televise our games again.
We WILL contend.


"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
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