You guys are saying 'BUM KNEE' Like you're surgeons, and Followed Antonio around since college...It's not a bum knee, he injured it. Patrick Ewing's knees were 'Bum' at the end of his career.

The trade was a sound one,, and the facts are:

-WE DO NOT KNOW how Dice will heal, so THE JURY IS OUT.
-WE DO KNOT KNOW what the NYK will get for the exception, nor how Chaney will run the squad. Let's not try to figure out the entire season just yet. Lots of stuff can happen. And if, by chance Dice recovers at the end of the season? If the Knicks have done well by then? Will we not be happy?

1995-Kevin Garnett (how many years to make playoffs and still be a first round out?)
1996 Ray allen Antoine Walker oh yes pick 13 was Kobe (how many years to playoffs for each? LA was good team when they got Kobe, btw, not a mediocre team, and Kobe's growth as a player is exceptional)
1997 ron mercer tim thomas 9th pick tracy mcgrady (and mcgrady spent three seasons in relative obscurity before breaking out, Mercer sucks and Thomas is nothing to write home about)
1998 vince carter jason williams 9th pick dirk nowitski 10 th pick paul pierce (vince carter has a lot to prove this year; he's definitely been in a funk, I already mentioned Pierce is great but took a few years to get to playoffs)
1999 sczerbiak andre miller rip hamilton (and only sczerbiak has been in playoffs, and is not a great player, just a decent one)
2000 mike miller (solid player, but more of a role guy)
2001 jason richardson eddie griffin shane battier (not impressed by these guys yet in NBA)

So you see. Only three or four guys out of 50 or so non-top-3 players will turn a team around. Do you see my point yet? Most of these guys you mentioned aren't as good as you make them out to be. You're fooling yourself. The odds don't lie.

I've said twice already, you CAN get a great player like Pierce, but the odds are you won't at 7th pick, and when you do he will take a few years to get good. Notice Riley and JVG wouldn't play rookies unless all other options were exhausted? Can you guess why? It's because, for the most part, they are not as good as veteran players, EVEN IF THEY ARE MORE TALENTED, THEY CAN'T PLAY "D" AGAINST PRO'S MOST OF THE TIME.

Posted by BRIGGS:

You make NO sense---I outlined to you picks 5-7 from 1995 on that list arguably are 5 - of the games top 7 players.

Top 7 players? Gasol? Gooden? Butler? You're joking. Those guys are not in the top half.

Your arguement was that you cant get a good pick[a pick that changes the landscape od the team for 10 years] if you dont have 1-3 and that is false.

No, that wasn't my point. You misread my statements. My point is you take risk on a veteran rather than a risk on a young guy, because even if the young guy is good, he won't be making the contribution you need THIS SEASON (if he does, then you got lucky). 10 years? What league are you talking about?

you are making a claim that the Knicks HAVe to make the playoffs--well let this go through your head if you cant grasp the point--the TALENT level is well below the standard to make the playoffs.

If they had kept Camby, Jackson, and gotten Butler/Wilcox/Wagner/Hilario, they DEFINITELY wouldn't make the playoffs. Understand? Camby would not be playing, Jackson is worse then Ward and Eisley now, and the others are bench meat.

Antonio Mcdyess has now hurt the same kneee three times in 18 months--you can classify him as done and if he comes back and stays healthy it will be a +. The Knicks will miss the playoffs for 2 straight years and are only getting worse and older. Your proclomation that the Knicks need to make the playoffs is irrelevant because they ARENOT!

Hey, Sherlock, we're not talking about now, we're talking about draft day, remember? You guys say it's Layden's fault the Knicks are in this situation. I'll say Eisley, Anderson, Houston's undeserved contract, Rice, Longley, and Mark Jackson are all Layden's fault. McDyess is NOT. He HAD to take that risk. Jerry West would have had to take that risk. Rod Thorn, too.

There is no magic 8 ball here--the Knicks GAMBLED and lost BIG TIME. there is NO bad luck--there is high risk--they risked that a player who hurt the same kneee cap 2 years in a row--wouldnt do it again. You know what it wasnt even close. The ONLy way the Knicks make the playoffs now is picking up 2-3 high caliber young basketball players and build a new core.

7th draft pick is "higher risk" (risk does not discount luck, btw) than McDyess, then and now. And about "young core", tell that to the Dolans. No, now Layden desperately needs to trade to see if he can get someone who can make the team competitive NOW. If they go into rebuilding mode, they will rue the day. So will the fans. Ask Chicago. Ask Golden State. For every one example of a rebuilding success story, I can show you five that failed. If Jason Kidd beat his wife again and went to jail, you'd blame Rod Thorn for making a bad deal, wouldn't you?

the team as we know it is shot. No one on this team may even play for the Knicks in the playoffs again--thats how serious this situation is. The year to make the playoffs was this year. With many unstable teams --even though the knicks were small they had a legit shot at a 6-8 seed. Now they are the WORST team in the league .

And how would they be if they kept the 7th pick? Not a playoff team this year, I guarantee it. Again, easy for you and others to criticize Layden's choice here AFTER the fact. If McDyess didn't get hurt and got them into the playoffs, you and the other whiners would be licking Layden's brown pucker in thanks.

levland is better Miami is better and those teams will only improve. There is no playoffs for the Knicks for quite awhile--that is the truth--the bottom line. The Knicks need to change philosophy or they will continue to miss the playoffs for YEARS upon years.

You're speaking from a fan perspective, which is irrelevant to how business is conducted. Mark Cuban and Nellie didn't rebuild. They just built. When Riley turned Miami from lottery team to playoff competitor, he didn't rebuild. Thorn didn't blow up the team in NJ, he worked with what he had.

If you say Layden should go, I won't argue with that. I agree. But he still has until the trade deadline to prove himself. Firing him right now would be wildly incompetent. Starting a rebuilding in preseason is amateurish. You'll just have to suffer and watch like the rest of us.

Briggs, I agree that they need to rebuild, but there is no way in the world that they can do what the Pacers did. The Knicks aren't a playoff contender anymore, and there are no Dale Davis's on this team. This team is very bad, and you will agree with me on that. The Knicks need patience, I saw the McDyess trade as a win-win. His contract expires after next season, along with several others. After 2004-2005, more contracts come off. With 2 lotto picks to build around, and more cap space, the Knicks will rebuild. This is the only way for them to go, it's hit rock bottom. It's going to be a long and painful process. You've always wanted them to stop and rebuild, and they finally are.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Without using a belligerent tone--i dont think you are getting my point.

No worries, Briggs, I get your point. And I agree that the Knicks are f@!#d, and I am well aware of the brutal season about to happen. We're all fans here and we're all unhappy! Just making sure you were getting my point, that the McDyess trade was a necessary risk, and, had it worked out okay, Knicks would have better shot at postseason than w/7th pick, a pick which has less chance of succeeding than a talented young All-Star who had 1 major injury. Layden's failures are many, but this trade was his best chance at the time. I think it's more indicative of Layden being a human bad luck charm, the anti-John Salley, if you will.

Don't be surprised if the Knicks play the same old line "we're always looking to improve the team, we're pretty happy with the team we have". But it's not Layden's doing, it's the Dolans. I predict, given the Knicks will not win very many games, Chaney will be out the door before Layden. Make no mistake, Briggs, I will be as relieved as you when Schmayden's gone.

If it were up to me, I would have started rebuilding after the 1999-2000 season, or at least done some serious remodeling. Didn't happen. But when Schmayden gave Houston that unbelievable contract, I knew rebuilding was out of the question. If faced with rebuilding, the Dolans will probably sell the team to some other corporate interest, one that may know even LESS about the game. Most Knick tickets are sold to corporations and fair-weather fans with wads of cash. They're not cheap, so one or two years of rebuilding will be a big painful shot to the wallet for Knicks owners. Dolans won't do it. Rebuilding only happens if they sell to someone who loves the game and has lots and lots of cash (Jerry, Spike, Woody, you guys just jump in any time).

its hard to rebuild in New York but its what has to be done. If we package spree and thomas we could get maybe a draft pick or a few people whos contracts r up after this year or next year. the only one who i would say is untradeable is houston because of his contract. Also in class today i was trying to think of the knicks starting five from the 1999. i got ewing lj houston and ward but i couldnt think of the power foward. because spree started off on the bench.

Posted by DefAndReb:

And fate said, "Ho ho ho, not so fast, Cablevision."

Good post. This is the first funny thing I've read about this whole situation.

Posted by john44:

its hard to rebuild in New York but its what has to be done. If we package spree and thomas we could get maybe a draft pick or a few people whos contracts r up after this year or next year. the only one who i would say is untradeable is houston because of his contract. Also in class today i was trying to think of the knicks starting five from the 1999. i got ewing lj houston and ward but i couldnt think of the power foward. because spree started off on the bench.

Hmm, I may be wrong but I think LJ played PF and Chris Mills played SF, and Doug Christie came off the bench to play swing Man.

Posted by LJ2:

Posted by nwny:

Posted by john44:

its hard to rebuild in New York but its what has to be done. If we package spree and thomas we could get maybe a draft pick or a few people whos contracts r up after this year or next year. the only one who i would say is untradeable is houston because of his contract. Also in class today i was trying to think of the knicks starting five from the 1999. i got ewing lj houston and ward but i couldnt think of the power foward. because spree started off on the bench.

Hmm, I may be wrong but I think LJ played PF and Chris Mills played SF, and Doug Christie came off the bench to play swing Man.

Mills wasn't on the team in the 98-99 season. Doug Christie wasn't on the team either. Mills and Starks were traded for Spree prior to the start of that season. But still don't know who that 5th was?

It was KT wasn't it?

Layden is not to blame.. The reason for the Knicks failure is due to Grunfeld. This team was on its way down the day they traded Charles Oakley. Him and starks were the heart of the team. In return for them, they got Camby( a bust), and Sprewell( too much for organization to handle). They lost their defensive tenacity, and attempted to be an offesive based team. And unless you have someone like shaq, or jordan who can guarantee their productivity, you cannot afford to lose your defensiveness. The players we have on the knicks are hi-level role players. We have no superstars. Houston scores 20 points a game only because no one else can. Unless this team gets a real point guard, they will be a sub-500 team for a long time. Frank Williams better step it up.

The way i see it is we trade Ward and Knight for Fortson and Mills. Let Fortson come into the line-up and he will do a nice job. Mills is out for awhile i believe, but he can take all the time he needs to get healthy. Then when Frank Williams comes back we insert him into the starting line-up or at least let him and Eisley split time, unless Williams proves to be that much better. If McDyess is going to be out for the year we might as well try to develop our young talent(Williams) and allow him to run with the big guns(Sprewell and Houston) and hopefully we will end up a lot more talented in the long run with the addition of Fortson, an injury exception which hopefully we can use, and a solid draft choice in next year's draft.

Posted by DaMano718:

Layden is not to blame.. The reason for the Knicks failure is due to Grunfeld. This team was on its way down the day they traded Charles Oakley. Him and starks were the heart of the team. In return for them, they got Camby( a bust), and Sprewell( too much for organization to handle). They lost their defensive tenacity, and attempted to be an offesive based team. And unless you have someone like shaq, or jordan who can guarantee their productivity, you cannot afford to lose your defensiveness. The players we have on the knicks are hi-level role players. We have no superstars. Houston scores 20 points a game only because no one else can. Unless this team gets a real point guard, they will be a sub-500 team for a long time. Frank Williams better step it up.

I can't belive you would say this. This is nuts. Look at what Oakley did the next seaon in Toronto. 7 PPG 7.5 RPG starting, and Camby 7.2 PPG and 5.5 RPG coming of the bench. With Ewings legs going Camby gave us a shot blocker so Ewing could stay on the floor. The Camby for Oakley trade was in NY favor but I could see how an argument could be made in the other direction. The Spree for Starks/Mills trade? Man, I'm not even going to debate that with you. Anyone who thinks this wasn't a steal for the Knicks is crazy.
As for your comment about "Layden is not to blame". Have you been asleep for the last few years?
1-Houston contract
2-Ewing for Rice
3-Rice for Eisley and Anderson
4-Eisley and Anderson's contract
5-Spoon's contract
Which one of these was a good? None dude, none. Layden is to blame, and saying he's not is stupid. The only agrument that could be made in his favor is if you said Dolan made him do it. Either way these moves were, bad, bad, bad.